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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:46 am 
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Location: land of the prince bishops.
as you say a fully regional set up....could of included spenny,blyth,gateshead,darlo,newcastle res,sunderland res,hartlepool res,boro res.similar to the old north eastern league...who needs a pyramid...crook,bishop,willington didnt need pyramids in their hey day..northern leagues most succesfull period,just look at the scalps they got in the fa cup...the NL carnt even make the 4th quallifying round nowadays.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:54 am 
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local lad wrote:
as you say a fully regional set up....could of included spenny,blyth,gateshead,darlo,newcastle res,sunderland res,hartlepool res,boro res.similar to the old north eastern league...who needs a pyramid...crook,bishop,willington didnt need pyramids in their hey day..northern leagues most succesfull period,just look at the scalps they got in the fa cup...the NL carnt even make the 4th quallifying round nowadays.


A number of clubs who were in the NL at the time have made the 4th Qual in the past 10yrs years....Shildon (twice), Bishops, Ashington, Hebburn, Benfield (I think), Marske.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:12 am 
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Posts: 31
handifan2 wrote:
Windy1970 wrote:
handifan2 wrote:
Windy, thank you for all your detailed responses so far. Maybe you can answer my next question.

What are the actual real benefits to clubs from a pyramid structure?

I honestly can't see any.
I can see benefits from having promotion and relegation to and from all leagues BUT you don't need a 1-2-4-8-16-.... pyramid shape to do that. Quite the opposite in fact - maintain regionality as far up the non league ladder as possible and you can double the number of promotion places and reduce the relegation spots by 25% without clubs incurring huge extra travelling costs at every promotion. That would benefit clubs massively.
It is almost like there was some guy in the FA many years ago who was doodling shapes on his notepad and decided he loved the symmetry of a pyramid and has since devoted all of his time to achieving the aim of restructuring everything to achieve that beautiful symmetric structure at all costs (to the clubs of course).

So what are the benefits of achieving this wonderfully symmetric and structured pyramid shape in non league football?


The F.A. wants to create a system from steps 1-6 that teams can progress or regress. The old system was a hotchpotch of self centred separate leagues. With no interest other than their own little empires. Hopefully in two seasons time the F.A. will create a step 4 league that benefits the northeast. Beyond the northeast there’s issues in that effect clubs in the current system. All the Herefordshire clubs have appealed to the F.A. hoping that the restructure would have placed them all in the Hellenic League(instead of the WMRL & MFL which they’ve always been in). https://www.herefordtimes.com/sport/foo ... ic_League/ The East Midlands hasn’t got a step 5 league. So teams 30-40 miles apart, have to play in 3 different leagues. Heanor Town asked to be demoted from the MFL Prem & told the F.A. that they didn’t want to be promoted again, until the F.A. sorts the East Midlands out with a step 5 league. Do I think a 1-2-4-8-16 will be perfect? No, but it’ll be better than the status quo!


Sorry but these are not benefits of a neat 1-2-4-8-16 structure. A pyramid structure decreases promotion opportunity at each step in the structure. A fully regional non league set up would solve all those problems without increasing risk to those involved. The "pyramid" isn't the answer. Ask an economist about profit, competition, investment and risk. Ask him to explain why a football structure in the shape of a pyramid is the worst possible structure for clubs who can least afford it.

The FA have just reduced the number of promotion places between NL2 and NL1 which is very bad indeed for both NL1 and NL2 clubs. All just to fit in with some bureaucratic ideology to create a neat 1-2-4-8-16 structure. Truly ludicrous.


The promotion places for each step are as follows: Step 1 has 2 promotion spots, Step 2 has 2 from each Division, Step 3 has 1.5 promotion spots per division(playoffs), Step 4 has 1 promotion spot per division & the 5 extra places determined by a series of playoffs, Step 5 has 1 promotion spot per division, step 6 has 1 promotion spot & 9 extra places for runners up on a ppg basis & Step 7 has a single promotion per league(maximum 38 places). So I don’t understand why you think it’s truly ludicrous that step 6’s promotion spaces have been reduced & yet they’re fine in all the other steps(which have never had 3 promotions per league).
Also there is a cost implication for promotion from each step! At step 6 you only need a G ground grading & at step 5 you need an F.
Also the new pyramid will mean that the footprints of the NL1 & NL2 will differ. With all the step 5 league’s covering larger areas(either 1/14th of the country or 1/16th in the future)& the step 6 league’s covering(1/19th of the country or 1/20th after next season).
The NL clubs voted to stay part of the pyramid & they will enjoy the benefits(FA Cup, Vase & grants) & will have to accept that they are a cog in a larger system.
Do I agree with everything the F.A. has done? No! I think the German system would make a lot more sense! But there we are.....


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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:43 am 
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Windy1970 wrote:
Windy, thank you for all your detailed responses so far. Maybe you can answer my next question.

What are the actual real benefits to clubs from a pyramid structure?

I honestly can't see any.
I can see benefits from having promotion and relegation to and from all leagues BUT you don't need a 1-2-4-8-16-.... pyramid shape to do that. Quite the opposite in fact - maintain regionality as far up the non league ladder as possible and you can double the number of promotion places and reduce the relegation spots by 25% without clubs incurring huge extra travelling costs at every promotion. That would benefit clubs massively.
It is almost like there was some guy in the FA many years ago who was doodling shapes on his notepad and decided he loved the symmetry of a pyramid and has since devoted all of his time to achieving the aim of restructuring everything to achieve that beautiful symmetric structure at all costs (to the clubs of course)

The promotion places for each step are as follows: Step 1 has 2 promotion spots, Step 2 has 2 from each Division, Step 3 has 1.5 promotion spots per division(playoffs), Step 4 has 1 promotion spot per division & the 5 extra places determined by a series of playoffs, Step 5 has 1 promotion spot per division, step 6 has 1 promotion spot & 9 extra places for runners up on a ppg basis & Step 7 has a single promotion per league(maximum 38 places). So I don’t understand why you think it’s truly ludicrous that step 6’s promotion spaces have been reduced & yet they’re fine in all the other steps(which have never had 3 promotions per league).
Also there is a cost implication for promotion from each step! At step 6 you only need a G ground grading & at step 5 you need an F.
Also the new pyramid will mean that the footprints of the NL1 & NL2 will differ. With all the step 5 league’s covering larger areas(either 1/14th of the country or 1/16th in the future)& the step 6 league’s covering(1/19th of the country or 1/20th after next season).
The NL clubs voted to stay part of the pyramid & they will enjoy the benefits(FA Cup, Vase & grants) & will have to accept that they are a cog in a larger system.
Do I agree with everything the F.A. has done? No! I think the German system would make a lot more sense! But there we are.....
[/quote]
Everything you mention is a disadvantage of a pyramid structure. A pyramid doesn't enable promotion, enabling promotion between different leagues does that, not a pyramid structure. With a pyramid there are successively higher travel costs for every club as they get promoted and now seemingly down to step 5-6 in the north east which is just nuts.
Add all the relegation spots at each step and you'll see what is wrong with the pyramid...2 up, 4 down at step 1, 4 up 6 down at step 2.......a pyramid structure seems designed to enable relegation at each step instead of promotion!!
I think we agree, it's far from perfect. But every time the FA moves towards their goal, they make it harder for all individual clubs, not easier. Typical of such an organisation - I've started so I'll finish, rather than just doing what is right for every non league semi pro and amateur club which would be fully regional league competition to step 1 with playoffs to get into FL and more national cup comps for the big Wembley days out.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:34 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:35 am
Posts: 31
handifan2 wrote:
Windy1970 wrote:
Windy, thank you for all your detailed responses so far. Maybe you can answer my next question.

What are the actual real benefits to clubs from a pyramid structure?

I honestly can't see any.
I can see benefits from having promotion and relegation to and from all leagues BUT you don't need a 1-2-4-8-16-.... pyramid shape to do that. Quite the opposite in fact - maintain regionality as far up the non league ladder as possible and you can double the number of promotion places and reduce the relegation spots by 25% without clubs incurring huge extra travelling costs at every promotion. That would benefit clubs massively.
It is almost like there was some guy in the FA many years ago who was doodling shapes on his notepad and decided he loved the symmetry of a pyramid and has since devoted all of his time to achieving the aim of restructuring everything to achieve that beautiful symmetric structure at all costs (to the clubs of course)

The promotion places for each step are as follows: Step 1 has 2 promotion spots, Step 2 has 2 from each Division, Step 3 has 1.5 promotion spots per division(playoffs), Step 4 has 1 promotion spot per division & the 5 extra places determined by a series of playoffs, Step 5 has 1 promotion spot per division, step 6 has 1 promotion spot & 9 extra places for runners up on a ppg basis & Step 7 has a single promotion per league(maximum 38 places). So I don’t understand why you think it’s truly ludicrous that step 6’s promotion spaces have been reduced & yet they’re fine in all the other steps(which have never had 3 promotions per league).
Also there is a cost implication for promotion from each step! At step 6 you only need a G ground grading & at step 5 you need an F.
Also the new pyramid will mean that the footprints of the NL1 & NL2 will differ. With all the step 5 league’s covering larger areas(either 1/14th of the country or 1/16th in the future)& the step 6 league’s covering(1/19th of the country or 1/20th after next season).
The NL clubs voted to stay part of the pyramid & they will enjoy the benefits(FA Cup, Vase & grants) & will have to accept that they are a cog in a larger system.
Do I agree with everything the F.A. has done? No! I think the German system would make a lot more sense! But there we are.....

Everything you mention is a disadvantage of a pyramid structure. A pyramid doesn't enable promotion, enabling promotion between different leagues does that, not a pyramid structure. With a pyramid there are successively higher travel costs for every club as they get promoted and now seemingly down to step 5-6 in the north east which is just nuts.
Add all the relegation spots at each step and you'll see what is wrong with the pyramid...2 up, 4 down at step 1, 4 up 6 down at step 2.......a pyramid structure seems designed to enable relegation at each step instead of promotion!!
I think we agree, it's far from perfect. But every time the FA moves towards their goal, they make it harder for all individual clubs, not easier. Typical of such an organisation - I've started so I'll finish, rather than just doing what is right for every non league semi pro and amateur club which would be fully regional league competition to step 1 with playoffs to get into FL and more national cup comps for the big Wembley days out.[/quote]

I know one thing that was discussed by the F.A. focus group! This was the merger of step 6 & 7! I don’t know if we will seriously see this happen. But I do know the costs of ground grading developments at step 6 were part of this discussions. Whenever the F.A. talks about there ultimate aim, it’s a 1-2-4-8-16 pyramid! No mention of a 1-2-4-8-16-32 pyramid!
I hope we see more promotions at each step & the inter-league playoffs might be the way. This is happening the season after this at step 5!


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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:55 pm 
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Not having a go at you windy....but there will for sure be fewer promotion spots between steps 5 and 6 from these changes to north east non league.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:29 pm 
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Posts: 31
handifan2 wrote:
Not having a go at you windy....but there will for sure be fewer promotion spots between steps 5 and 6 from these changes to north east non league.


How many teams in the NL2 have an F or better ground grading?
Sometimes chasing promotion financially kills clubs. Fans look at promotion as an achievement, when keeping a club going is hard enough & must be the priority. The argument about the ridiculous ground grading regulations, can be brought up! But the F.A. & leagues don’t want to reduce the standards. Especially when only 100 souls or so watch a game.
We’ll see how many promotions are offered in two seasons time. Whenever the 8th step 4 league is created. If & when the 2 extra step 5 leagues are created, we might see a few lateral transfers & extra promotions made available too.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:04 pm 
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Windy1970 wrote:
handifan2 wrote:
Not having a go at you windy....but there will for sure be fewer promotion spots between steps 5 and 6 from these changes to north east non league.


How many teams in the NL2 have an F or better ground grading?
Sometimes chasing promotion financially kills clubs. Fans look at promotion as an achievement, when keeping a club going is hard enough & must be the priority. The argument about the ridiculous ground grading regulations, can be brought up! But the F.A. & leagues don’t want to reduce the standards. Especially when only 100 souls or so watch a game.
We’ll see how many promotions are offered in two seasons time. Whenever the 8th step 4 league is created. If & when the 2 extra step 5 leagues are created, we might see a few lateral transfers & extra promotions made available too.


There will always be fewer promotion spots in a pyramid structure. It can't be any other way which is why the structure is a problem.

Don't mention ground grading - quite why clubs in steps 4,5,6 need to maintain grounds 10x larger than their crowds is beyond me. More idiocy.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:41 am 
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I may be wrong, I usually am :-), but this for me is yet another nail in the coffin for the "have-nots"..

2 or 3 clubs with the biggest budgets will be up there fighting for promotion whilst those with out, possibly with a couple of exceptions will have half a season, possibly less with anything to play for.

In the current financial climate and with clubs struggling terribly just to survive I find this as another example of an FA full of dinosaurs totally out of touch with the reality of what is important in non league football, surely they should be encouraging supporters through the gates not chasing them away !!! ..


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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:07 am 
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Location: By The Seaside
We won promotion by winning the Wearside League by 1 point. Close, but now we can win promotion to Division 1 next season by 0.01 of a point, if my understanding of ppg is correct. Now that would be close! Or am I on the wrong track there?

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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:29 am 
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the little fella wrote:
We won promotion by winning the Wearside League by 1 point. Close, but now we can win promotion to Division 1 next season by 0.01 of a point, if my understanding of ppg is correct. Now that would be close! Or am I on the wrong track there?

You’re totally correct


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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:58 am 
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Location: Westerhope...formerly Bedlington - Home to the most successful team in Wansbeck
Still Learning. wrote:
I may be wrong, I usually am :-), but this for me is yet another nail in the coffin for the "have-nots"..

2 or 3 clubs with the biggest budgets will be up there fighting for promotion whilst those with out, possibly with a couple of exceptions will have half a season, possibly less with anything to play for.

In the current financial climate and with clubs struggling terribly just to survive I find this as another example of an FA full of dinosaurs totally out of touch with the reality of what is important in non league football, surely they should be encouraging supporters through the gates not chasing them away !!! ..


In most leagues (including ours now) there are only ever a handful of clubs truly challenging, the rest being also-rans - so that doesn't change, only the number of opportunities. Ultimately clubs should live within their means if they want to prosper long term - nothing wrong with ambition but it has to be sustainable. The Northern League spent most of it's history not being interested in the rest of the world, so not sure why the restructuring should make things worse now. Decisions of the past 40 years have made sure of that.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:42 am 
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Location: land of the prince bishops.
a side can get comfortably into the top half of league with no budget...even a small budget you could be challenging..thats the nature of the beast.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:34 am 
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Local lad, Terrier Dave, so you both think this is a justifiable action by the FA. ?


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