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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:57 am 
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SSOT wrote:
Agree should never have been aloud not to promote from NL1 but back to my point other than tread water some of the best games i seen last season were at clubs like alnwick / Ra brandon bishop etc Dont just go out to watch the super rich sides


Bishop?Jesus must be easily pleased if you saw a good game involving us last season!


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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:04 am 
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SSOT wrote:
Agree should never have been aloud not to promote from NL1 but back to my point other than tread water some of the best games i seen last season were at clubs like alnwick / Ra brandon bishop etc Dont just go out to watch the super rich sides

Even if the promotion race is tied up by Xmas, you’ll still be able to enjoy the race to avoid the trapdoor. As far as the promotion race goes, the teams in 2nd will be pulling trees up to achieve the best runners up ppg total. Just to clarify one point on the runners up promotion criteria. If any extra promotions become available. Because x,y or z teams resign, fold or demoted across step 5/6 or higher up the pyramid. Then an extra promotion spot will be given to the 10th best ppg runners up, then the 11th & so on. Only when all the runners up have been promoted, will the F.A. start reprieving teams at step 4. The only thing that makes me wonder if this will actually happen, is the fact that there are 20 spaces currently available across step 6! This may reduce after all the appeals have been heard though.
The season after this one will be interesting though, in regards to promotion. Because the F.A. have promised to create the 8th step 4 league in northeast. By this time next year, we should know the criteria for promotion. If the F.A. decides to promote between 4 & 10 NL1 clubs for instance, this’ll have a knock on effect for the NL2 & the feeder leagues.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:58 am 
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Windy, thank you for all your detailed responses so far. Maybe you can answer my next question.

What are the actual real benefits to clubs from a pyramid structure?

I honestly can't see any.
I can see benefits from having promotion and relegation to and from all leagues BUT you don't need a 1-2-4-8-16-.... pyramid shape to do that. Quite the opposite in fact - maintain regionality as far up the non league ladder as possible and you can double the number of promotion places and reduce the relegation spots by 25% without clubs incurring huge extra travelling costs at every promotion. That would benefit clubs massively.
It is almost like there was some guy in the FA many years ago who was doodling shapes on his notepad and decided he loved the symmetry of a pyramid and has since devoted all of his time to achieving the aim of restructuring everything to achieve that beautiful symmetric structure at all costs (to the clubs of course).

So what are the benefits of achieving this wonderfully symmetric and structured pyramid shape in non league football?


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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:13 am 
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Location: land of the prince bishops.
first of all your gates would probably drop..very few away fans.some fans like to go to home and away games..this wouldnt always be possible...football no better standard to what they left..how wants to travel 100 miles to play in front of 70 or 80 fans on a tuesday night.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:02 am 
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Location: Westerhope...formerly Bedlington - Home to the most successful team in Wansbeck
These attitudes to the pyramid is why the Northern League has become at risk at being seen a tinpot league obsessed with a tinpot cup - much of the remaining pyramid at our level and above already see it as that.

40 years ago or so, the league was offered a direct feeder status into the then new Alliance (now Conference National) - they turned their back, and continued to do so.

So, instead of being what we would now call a Step 2 division, with an influence in how the non-league game would develop, we are now a Step 5 backwater.

It will take a few years (and the eventual 8th Step 4 division in the North) to see a major change, but it will happen. The FA should have taken control a long time ago

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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:15 am 
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Posts: 822
handifan2 wrote:
Windy, thank you for all your detailed responses so far. Maybe you can answer my next question.

What are the actual real benefits to clubs from a pyramid structure?

I honestly can't see any.
I can see benefits from having promotion and relegation to and from all leagues BUT you don't need a 1-2-4-8-16-.... pyramid shape to do that. Quite the opposite in fact - maintain regionality as far up the non league ladder as possible and you can double the number of promotion places and reduce the relegation spots by 25% without clubs incurring huge extra travelling costs at every promotion. That would benefit clubs massively.
It is almost like there was some guy in the FA many years ago who was doodling shapes on his notepad and decided he loved the symmetry of a pyramid and has since devoted all of his time to achieving the aim of restructuring everything to achieve that beautiful symmetric structure at all costs (to the clubs of course).

So what are the benefits of achieving this wonderfully symmetric and structured pyramid shape in non league football?


The F.A. wants to create a system from steps 1-6 that teams can progress or regress. The old system was a hotchpotch of self centred separate leagues. With no interest other than their own little empires. Hopefully in two seasons time the F.A. will create a step 4 league that benefits the northeast. Beyond the northeast there’s issues in that effect clubs in the current system. All the Herefordshire clubs have appealed to the F.A. hoping that the restructure would have placed them all in the Hellenic League(instead of the WMRL & MFL which they’ve always been in). https://www.herefordtimes.com/sport/foo ... ic_League/ The East Midlands hasn’t got a step 5 league. So teams 30-40 miles apart, have to play in 3 different leagues. Heanor Town asked to be demoted from the MFL Prem & told the F.A. that they didn’t want to be promoted again, until the F.A. sorts the East Midlands out with a step 5 league. Do I think a 1-2-4-8-16 will be perfect? No, but it’ll be better than the status quo!


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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:39 am 
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Posts: 334
Terrierdave wrote:
These attitudes to the pyramid is why the Northern League has become at risk at being seen a tinpot league obsessed with a tinpot cup - much of the remaining pyramid at our level and above already see it as that.

40 years ago or so, the league was offered a direct feeder status into the then new Alliance (now Conference National) - they turned their back, and continued to do so.

So, instead of being what we would now call a Step 2 division, with an influence in how the non-league game would develop, we are now a Step 5 backwater.

It will take a few years (and the eventual 8th Step 4 division in the North) to see a major change, but it will happen. The FA should have taken control a long time ago


And your club was a fine example of the above in the late 90s winning the NL multiple times and staying put to chase the FA Vase. Pot kettle comes to mind.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:40 am 
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Posts: 334
local lad wrote:
first of all your gates would probably drop..very few away fans.some fans like to go to home and away games..this wouldnt always be possible...football no better standard to what they left..how wants to travel 100 miles to play in front of 70 or 80 fans on a tuesday night.


Your point is flawed Local Lad. Apart from the likes of Bishops, Bay, Shildon, Consett most other NL clubs barely bring a handful of supporters, nothing really changes here. Keep burying your head in the sand.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:58 am 
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Joined: Sat May 24, 2014 7:44 am
Posts: 497
Location: land of the prince bishops.
1 point flawed..what about the other 3...


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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:05 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:23 pm
Posts: 730
Daft thing is.. If your team is placed second around February time, and are likely to finish around that position.... Do you then look at all the other leagues every week to make sure your club stands a chance of promotion. On paper, the whole idea could have been constructed by an 11 year old!

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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:10 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2003 7:58 am
Posts: 2008
Location: Westerhope...formerly Bedlington - Home to the most successful team in Wansbeck
Mike M wrote:
Terrierdave wrote:
These attitudes to the pyramid is why the Northern League has become at risk at being seen a tinpot league obsessed with a tinpot cup - much of the remaining pyramid at our level and above already see it as that.

40 years ago or so, the league was offered a direct feeder status into the then new Alliance (now Conference National) - they turned their back, and continued to do so.

So, instead of being what we would now call a Step 2 division, with an influence in how the non-league game would develop, we are now a Step 5 backwater.

It will take a few years (and the eventual 8th Step 4 division in the North) to see a major change, but it will happen. The FA should have taken control a long time ago


And your club was a fine example of the above in the late 90s winning the NL multiple times and staying put to chase the FA Vase. Pot kettle comes to mind.


I was going to add that myself, but you've now saved me the trouble. Clubs have always had the choice whether to seek to progress - the League couldn't stop it, although they often did their best to paint a dark picture of the circumstances.

On the Terriers specifically, I completely agree it was a missed opportunity - and look at us now. In some ways we are an example that demonstrates the decline of the Northern League

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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:42 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:52 pm
Posts: 334
Terrierdave wrote:
Mike M wrote:
Terrierdave wrote:
These attitudes to the pyramid is why the Northern League has become at risk at being seen a tinpot league obsessed with a tinpot cup - much of the remaining pyramid at our level and above already see it as that.

40 years ago or so, the league was offered a direct feeder status into the then new Alliance (now Conference National) - they turned their back, and continued to do so.

So, instead of being what we would now call a Step 2 division, with an influence in how the non-league game would develop, we are now a Step 5 backwater.

It will take a few years (and the eventual 8th Step 4 division in the North) to see a major change, but it will happen. The FA should have taken control a long time ago


And your club was a fine example of the above in the late 90s winning the NL multiple times and staying put to chase the FA Vase. Pot kettle comes to mind.


I was going to add that myself, but you've now saved me the trouble. Clubs have always had the choice whether to seek to progress - the League couldn't stop it, although they often did their best to paint a dark picture of the circumstances.

On the Terriers specifically, I completely agree it was a missed opportunity - and look at us now. In some ways we are an example that demonstrates the decline of the Northern League


I respect you for that last post. You are not an Ostrich, i repeat you are not an Ostrich....head completely clear of sand unlike local lad.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:55 pm 
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Every season is a challenge for us, this makes no difference

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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:15 pm 
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Shambolic organising from the FA. This must have taken all of 5 minutes to think of. Surely the Step 6 leagues could have lost a promotion place last season and even the season before, but to suddenly go from 3 to 1 (maybe 2) is awful. The new Step 3 (Midland) and Step 4 (Southern) leagues and forthcoming new Step 5 leagues could have been combined all at once, so Step 6 wouldn't have been affected as much.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you get out of northern league two.........
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:49 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:38 pm
Posts: 40
Windy1970 wrote:
handifan2 wrote:
Windy, thank you for all your detailed responses so far. Maybe you can answer my next question.

What are the actual real benefits to clubs from a pyramid structure?

I honestly can't see any.
I can see benefits from having promotion and relegation to and from all leagues BUT you don't need a 1-2-4-8-16-.... pyramid shape to do that. Quite the opposite in fact - maintain regionality as far up the non league ladder as possible and you can double the number of promotion places and reduce the relegation spots by 25% without clubs incurring huge extra travelling costs at every promotion. That would benefit clubs massively.
It is almost like there was some guy in the FA many years ago who was doodling shapes on his notepad and decided he loved the symmetry of a pyramid and has since devoted all of his time to achieving the aim of restructuring everything to achieve that beautiful symmetric structure at all costs (to the clubs of course).

So what are the benefits of achieving this wonderfully symmetric and structured pyramid shape in non league football?


The F.A. wants to create a system from steps 1-6 that teams can progress or regress. The old system was a hotchpotch of self centred separate leagues. With no interest other than their own little empires. Hopefully in two seasons time the F.A. will create a step 4 league that benefits the northeast. Beyond the northeast there’s issues in that effect clubs in the current system. All the Herefordshire clubs have appealed to the F.A. hoping that the restructure would have placed them all in the Hellenic League(instead of the WMRL & MFL which they’ve always been in). https://www.herefordtimes.com/sport/foo ... ic_League/ The East Midlands hasn’t got a step 5 league. So teams 30-40 miles apart, have to play in 3 different leagues. Heanor Town asked to be demoted from the MFL Prem & told the F.A. that they didn’t want to be promoted again, until the F.A. sorts the East Midlands out with a step 5 league. Do I think a 1-2-4-8-16 will be perfect? No, but it’ll be better than the status quo!


Sorry but these are not benefits of a neat 1-2-4-8-16 structure. A pyramid structure decreases promotion opportunity at each step in the structure. A fully regional non league set up would solve all those problems without increasing risk to those involved. The "pyramid" isn't the answer. Ask an economist about profit, competition, investment and risk. Ask him to explain why a football structure in the shape of a pyramid is the worst possible structure for clubs who can least afford it.

The FA have just reduced the number of promotion places between NL2 and NL1 which is very bad indeed for both NL1 and NL2 clubs. All just to fit in with some bureaucratic ideology to create a neat 1-2-4-8-16 structure. Truly ludicrous.


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