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 Post subject: Re: The FA's proposed new restructuring
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:52 pm 
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The density of clubs in England correlates with population density. As you'd expect and for obvious reasons.
The North East region has a high density of clubs in the densely populated areas, just like the rest of the south east does.
Then there is a big gap to the rest of the country.
So what? You can't change geography just like you can't change population density. So why should south east clubs be punished for being in a high density population and have their opportunities limited by lack of leagues through which they can make progress? This is what would happen if geography ruled when setting league boundaries.


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 Post subject: Re: The FA's proposed new restructuring
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:58 pm 
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So just get on with it. The pyramid is fair to all regions. The geography / isolationist argument from some only suits the agenda of some who value "league status" over member clubs' status.
Besides, North East born and bred players could feckin jog to Leicestershire and still whup those southern softies arses both on the pitch and in the bar afterwards.


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 Post subject: Re: The FA's proposed new restructuring
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:00 pm 
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Then jog home in time for tea afterwards.


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 Post subject: Re: The FA's proposed new restructuring
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:18 am 
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There’s about 53 million people in England. There’s about 27 million living below the Severn-Wash line & 26 million above that line. There are 14 step 5 leagues & only 5 are above the Severn-Wash line. That’s why the pyramid doesn’t work.


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 Post subject: Re: The FA's proposed new restructuring
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:48 am 
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As a supporter of an Isthmian team and resident of Weardale I have to say that teams in Kent, Sussex and SE London have a long history of striving for promotion and generally investing money(at times, too much) into meeting ground grading regs. This of course has fed and encouraged the FALC agenda and added to the imbalance of step 3 and 4 leagues.

To me, the current situation is born of the NL's past intransigence, some clubs pot hunting in the vase and league and a refusal by the various authorities to get everyone round a table and find a fair and equitable solution.

Sadly we cannot turn any clocks back, and it seems that the only vaguely fair solution is for teams that do want to find their true playing level in the pyramid accept and embrace promotion, and those who want to just enjoy local footy opt out of the system and national competitions.

I also have to say that if I were a supporter of a NL team, as opposed to my status as someone who chooses a game I fancy each week when I don't go down south, that I would be livid if "my" teams chance of promotion was scuppered by a team that spent loads of money that it did not generate itself eg via sugar daddy, debt or council.

I have been in this situation several times, and in fact our league has one team, Billericay spending an admitted £25,000 per week on wages on an average gate of 1,100.

If this were also compounded by that team also not wanting to take promotion then I could see little point in watching that league.

Sorry for such a long post but as you can tell, this is something that causes me strong emotions.

I wish no ill to any team that is content to stay as a local team playing local games but the situation where teams with totally conflicting ambitions are in the same league is always going to cause major issues


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 Post subject: Re: The FA's proposed new restructuring
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:40 am 
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kentrebel wrote:
As a supporter of an Isthmian team and resident of Weardale I have to say that teams in Kent, Sussex and SE London have a long history of striving for promotion and generally investing money(at times, too much) into meeting ground grading regs. This of course has fed and encouraged the FALC agenda and added to the imbalance of step 3 and 4 leagues.

To me, the current situation is born of the NL's past intransigence, some clubs pot hunting in the vase and league and a refusal by the various authorities to get everyone round a table and find a fair and equitable solution.

Sadly we cannot turn any clocks back, and it seems that the only vaguely fair solution is for teams that do want to find their true playing level in the pyramid accept and embrace promotion, and those who want to just enjoy local footy opt out of the system and national competitions.

I also have to say that if I were a supporter of a NL team, as opposed to my status as someone who chooses a game I fancy each week when I don't go down south, that I would be livid if "my" teams chance of promotion was scuppered by a team that spent loads of money that it did not generate itself eg via sugar daddy, debt or council.

I have been in this situation several times, and in fact our league has one team, Billericay spending an admitted £25,000 per week on wages on an average gate of 1,100.

If this were also compounded by that team also not wanting to take promotion then I could see little point in watching that league.

Sorry for such a long post but as you can tell, this is something that causes me strong emotions.

I wish no ill to any team that is content to stay as a local team playing local games but the situation where teams with totally conflicting ambitions are in the same league is always going to cause major issues



Excellent post and really good to hear views of an “outsider”


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 Post subject: Re: The FA's proposed new restructuring
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:36 pm 
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Windy1970
Can you explain why,as you seem to have a fair bit of knowledge, the Evostick League have to vote on an East West split rather than their current North / South divide - surely the FA when they are insisting on the revised structures they should have spilt the North Grouping to an East and West divide


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 Post subject: Re: The FA's proposed new restructuring
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:12 pm 
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Location: Oh Allerton is wonderful
kentrebel wrote:
As a supporter of an Isthmian team and resident of Weardale I have to say that teams in Kent, Sussex and SE London have a long history of striving for promotion and generally investing money(at times, too much) into meeting ground grading regs. This of course has fed and encouraged the FALC agenda and added to the imbalance of step 3 and 4 leagues.

To me, the current situation is born of the NL's past intransigence, some clubs pot hunting in the vase and league and a refusal by the various authorities to get everyone round a table and find a fair and equitable solution.

Sadly we cannot turn any clocks back, and it seems that the only vaguely fair solution is for teams that do want to find their true playing level in the pyramid accept and embrace promotion, and those who want to just enjoy local footy opt out of the system and national competitions.

I also have to say that if I were a supporter of a NL team, as opposed to my status as someone who chooses a game I fancy each week when I don't go down south, that I would be livid if "my" teams chance of promotion was scuppered by a team that spent loads of money that it did not generate itself eg via sugar daddy, debt or council.

I have been in this situation several times, and in fact our league has one team, Billericay spending an admitted £25,000 per week on wages on an average gate of 1,100.

If this were also compounded by that team also not wanting to take promotion then I could see little point in watching that league.

Sorry for such a long post but as you can tell, this is something that causes me strong emotions.

I wish no ill to any team that is content to stay as a local team playing local games but the situation where teams with totally conflicting ambitions are in the same league is always going to cause major issues


Excellent post and sums up exactly what I feel. Ironically I have noticed a sharp decline in posts from people who are against (automatic) promotion in the last few months. The argument put by the vast majority who back the automatic promotion and do not buy for one minute the money issue seems to have all but won the day. This is great news for football in the North East.

Perhaps someone can garner opinion from those that want to stay put and create their own FA affiliated league outside the pyramid, however I suspect there will be very few teams applying.

_________________
"Sky rockets in flight.....booom.....afternoon delight........aaaaaaaaaaaafternoon delight"


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 Post subject: Re: The FA's proposed new restructuring
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:48 pm 
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Joe90TheCestrian wrote:
Windy1970
Can you explain why,as you seem to have a fair bit of knowledge, the Evostick League have to vote on an East West split rather than their current North / South divide - surely the FA when they are insisting on the revised structures they should have spilt the North Grouping to an East and West divide


The link I posted from the Nonleague Paper stated that the NPL are going to put it to a vote between its clubs


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 Post subject: Re: The FA's proposed new restructuring
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:30 pm 
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My own personal thoughts on why I've changed my position.
The last time the club I support (Whitley Bay) was in a promotion spot was 10 years ago now which was 7 years after relegation from the NPL (Relegated 2000, Champions in 2007). I was dubious about returning to the NPL at the time mainly due to fact that the club had nearly gone under during the latter years and it was pretty miserable being in a relegation spat for the last number of them. My attitude then somewhat hardened against promotion after seeing the travails of Spennymoor, Blue Star and Durham City.
Sustainability has become a bit of a buzzword in my industry in the last 10-15 years and that had moulded my thinking on the subject, due to the costs to the clubs and also the time of travelling for players particularly midweek that ultimately the pyramid wasn't in a format that was sustainable for clubs in the North East. Ultimately we will all end up in position of mediocrity at which point crowds subside, returns reduce and yet costs will at least stay the same if not increase by inflation. The result is either you spend more than your bringing in, accruing debts along the way, or reduce the playing budget (which is the only thing you can reduce), resulting in poorer players, poorer performances and smaller crowds and so the downward spiral continues.
Players time is a factor also. I've worked with some very good senior players for whom disappearing at lunchtime or mid afternoon to play a mid week away game just couldn't happen any longer with the result that they stepped away from the NPL and back into the NL which they could accommodate more.
Recently though my opinion has changed. You can achieve promotion through a big input of cash and good luck to teams who do that. For every Fleetwood and Crawley there is a Rushden and Diamonds and Gretna so care is needed, I think Spennymoor seem to have the balance right of sustainable development with the help of a cash injection.
But how about the rest of us, there is only so many pots of gold around. Promotion and advancement are possible (and desirable if stagnation is to be avoided) by paying fees at a sustainable level (perhaps through the development of your own players), spending on stadiums to improve their grading for future promotion and accepting the rough with the smooth when facing relegation with a regroup and go again attitude. Enforced promotion will allow this model to have success because at the moment teams can prevent growth of the many by short term unsustainable spending on the playing budget for short term glory but no long term benefit as they refuse progression.


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 Post subject: Re: The FA's proposed new restructuring
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:29 pm 
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Windy1970 wrote:
Joe90TheCestrian wrote:
Windy1970
Can you explain why,as you seem to have a fair bit of knowledge, the Evostick League have to vote on an East West split rather than their current North / South divide - surely the FA when they are insisting on the revised structures they should have spilt the North Grouping to an East and West divide


The link I posted from the Nonleague Paper stated that the NPL are going to put it to a vote between its clubs


Yes I know they are but my question is why do they have a vote - why don't the FA impose the split like they are imposing the rest of the structure - why should they have a vote no one else has a vote as far as I can see


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 Post subject: Re: The FA's proposed new restructuring
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:02 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:49 am
Posts: 34
aidan's father wrote:
My own personal thoughts on why I've changed my position.
The last time the club I support (Whitley Bay) was in a promotion spot was 10 years ago now which was 7 years after relegation from the NPL (Relegated 2000, Champions in 2007). I was dubious about returning to the NPL at the time mainly due to fact that the club had nearly gone under during the latter years and it was pretty miserable being in a relegation spat for the last number of them. My attitude then somewhat hardened against promotion after seeing the travails of Spennymoor, Blue Star and Durham City.
Sustainability has become a bit of a buzzword in my industry in the last 10-15 years and that had moulded my thinking on the subject, due to the costs to the clubs and also the time of travelling for players particularly midweek that ultimately the pyramid wasn't in a format that was sustainable for clubs in the North East. Ultimately we will all end up in position of mediocrity at which point crowds subside, returns reduce and yet costs will at least stay the same if not increase by inflation. The result is either you spend more than your bringing in, accruing debts along the way, or reduce the playing budget (which is the only thing you can reduce), resulting in poorer players, poorer performances and smaller crowds and so the downward spiral continues.
Players time is a factor also. I've worked with some very good senior players for whom disappearing at lunchtime or mid afternoon to play a mid week away game just couldn't happen any longer with the result that they stepped away from the NPL and back into the NL which they could accommodate more.
Recently though my opinion has changed. You can achieve promotion through a big input of cash and good luck to teams who do that. For every Fleetwood and Crawley there is a Rushden and Diamonds and Gretna so care is needed, I think Spennymoor seem to have the balance right of sustainable development with the help of a cash injection.
But how about the rest of us, there is only so many pots of gold around. Promotion and advancement are possible (and desirable if stagnation is to be avoided) by paying fees at a sustainable level (perhaps through the development of your own players), spending on stadiums to improve their grading for future promotion and accepting the rough with the smooth when facing relegation with a regroup and go again attitude. Enforced promotion will allow this model to have success because at the moment teams can prevent growth of the many by short term unsustainable spending on the playing budget for short term glory but no long term benefit as they refuse progression.


Another great post and the major problem is the pots of gold standing still and not pushing through to compete at their natural affordable level. This has massive knock on effects such as players not going up the leagues and staying in this league to earn a tidy sum.
I can only imagine that Whitby, blyth have really struggled with this scenario.
In an ideal world, you shouldn’t be able to earn as much playing in the NL as what you can in the divisions, but we all know this isn’t the case.
The whole point regarding players was that to earn decent money you have to play higher up the pyramid and makes the sacrifices of work etc, at the moment (certainly recently), you don’t need to do this as you can stay in the NL earn more and “be home for tea”


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 Post subject: Re: The FA's proposed new restructuring
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:54 am 
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Joe90TheCestrian wrote:
Windy1970 wrote:
Joe90TheCestrian wrote:
Windy1970
Can you explain why,as you seem to have a fair bit of knowledge, the Evostick League have to vote on an East West split rather than their current North / South divide - surely the FA when they are insisting on the revised structures they should have spilt the North Grouping to an East and West divide


The link I posted from the Nonleague Paper stated that the NPL are going to put it to a vote between its clubs


Yes I know they are but my question is why do they have a vote - why don't the FA impose the split like they are imposing the rest of the structure - why should they have a vote no one else has a vote as far as I can see


From what I understand, the F.A. would like to introduce an east/west split. The F.A.’s meeting with the NL clubs, the question was raised & an east/west split was the clubs preference. The only issue, is the clubs & the F.A. were talking about the ‘Super NL’ idea. Now I assume this’ll happen whenever the 8th step 4 league is introduced. How & why the idea changed to this current restructure is anyone’s guess! My personal feelings are that Nick Robinson pushed this through & also the compulsory promotion. To force NL teams to go up & then create the Super NL down the road. So both north/south & east/west are undesirable & that’s why I think it’s going to be left for the clubs to decide. So if there’s any gripes, the F.A. & NPL can point out to the clubs, that it was there own decision! But this is just my personal opinion!


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 Post subject: Re: The FA's proposed new restructuring
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:13 am 
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From what I understand, the F.A. would like to introduce an east/west split. The F.A.’s meeting with the NL clubs, the question was raised & an east/west split was the clubs preference. The only issue, is the clubs & the F.A. were talking about the ‘Super NL’ idea. Now I assume this’ll happen whenever the 8th step 4 league is introduced. How & why the idea changed to this current restructure is anyone’s guess! My personal feelings are that Nick Robinson pushed this through & also the compulsory promotion. To force NL teams to go up & then create the Super NL down the road. So both north/south & east/west are undesirable & that’s why I think it’s going to be left for the clubs to decide. So if there’s any gripes, the F.A. & NPL can point out to the clubs, that it was there own decision! But this is just my personal opinion![/quote]

Thanks for this Windy maybe if Mr Robinson had gone for the Super NL as you put it - he might have found the whole thing more acceptable - the clubs signed onto the proposal 2 years ago with the FA at their meeting at the Ramside - Mr Robinson was at that meeting so knew their views


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 Post subject: Re: The FA's proposed new restructuring
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:21 am 
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Joe90TheCestrian wrote:
From what I understand, the F.A. would like to introduce an east/west split. The F.A.’s meeting with the NL clubs, the question was raised & an east/west split was the clubs preference. The only issue, is the clubs & the F.A. were talking about the ‘Super NL’ idea. Now I assume this’ll happen whenever the 8th step 4 league is introduced. How & why the idea changed to this current restructure is anyone’s guess! My personal feelings are that Nick Robinson pushed this through & also the compulsory promotion. To force NL teams to go up & then create the Super NL down the road. So both north/south & east/west are undesirable & that’s why I think it’s going to be left for the clubs to decide. So if there’s any gripes, the F.A. & NPL can point out to the clubs, that it was there own decision! But this is just my personal opinion!


Thanks for this Windy maybe if Mr Robinson had gone for the Super NL as you put it - he might have found the whole thing more acceptable - the clubs signed onto the proposal 2 years ago with the FA at their meeting at the Ramside - Mr Robinson was at that meeting so knew their views[/quote]

I remember an interview Nick Robinson did with the Nonleague Paper a while back. He mentioned about the ‘ Isthmian League’s lost west London clubs’, who were now playing in the Southern League & that he felt that his league having Norfolk/Suffolk teams was wrong. So this current restructure, seems to have sorted poor old Nick’s concerns out! But the Central/Midlands League idea, hasn’t really happened as everyone envisioned. With only a single club being relegated from each step 4 league. It meant that the southeast already had extra clubs to be placed in the new structure. Because the Isthmian step 4 leagues have 24 clubs, instead of the 22 in the SLP & NPL. Plus there are 7 step 5 leagues in the southeast. With 2 teams being promoted from each step 5 league. It means the Isthmian League has gained the West of London clubs, but now has 3 step 4 leagues to distribute those 60 clubs. Where as the other 4 step 4 leagues aren’t much smaller than they were before. The NPL has probably only lost about 6 or 8 clubs for instance. So we won’t see any real change in the southeast drift, until the F.A. creates an 8th step 4 league & totally redraws the footprints of step 5. Including the creation of the 2 new step 5 leagues & making sure they’re in the north or midlands. I hope this all makes sense for everyone!


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